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Posted August 1, 2023
5 minutes ago, Frustration said:
A huge thanks to the mods for moving this topic.
Given how in Yumi we saw the first perpetual motion machine on screen I would like to know if that changes anyone's perception on a Roaharan version.
You are objectively wrong there, there was no perpetual motion machine present in Yumi. There was a machine with a large energy source, but to say it is a PMM is to flat out ignore the statements of the text. I feel you are, by looking at this thread as a whole, very obsessed with finding a PMM to such a degree that you are kind-of just creating headcanons. Like saying that Conservation of Energy doesn't apply to Investiture, which is blatantly untrue.
What is true is that Investiture can be pulled into a system to give it power, but that just creates a larger system.
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Inphysicsandchemistry, thelaw of conservation of energystates that the totalenergyof anisolated systemremains constant; it is said to beconservedover time.[1]Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another. For instance,chemical energyisconvertedtokinetic energywhen a stick ofdynamiteexplodes. If one adds up all forms of energy that were released in the explosion, such as thekinetic energyandpotential energyof the pieces, as well as heat and sound, one will get the exact decrease of chemical energy in the combustion of the dynamite.
Everything stated here still holds with Investiture. You are simply making a mistake of considering a machine connected to an external power source to be an isolated system, which it is not. It is powered by the Splinters of Virtuosity, without those Splinters, it shut down, which supports the idea that it is not a PMM as it requires draining that energy in order to function. Think of it like this, is a house powered by a nuclear power plant a PMM for being able to run for a very long amount of time as ituses up radioactive elements at the plant? It wouldn't be (and not just due to not being perpetual), due to the fact that the energy is taken from an outside source, that being the plant.
A PPM is a machine that:
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once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it.
This explicitly does not apply to the Father Machine, which has an energy source that it relies upon, and without that energy source, it would cease to function. A true PPM would not rely upon an energy source like that, they are like batteries, but made out of the fragments of a dead god. So, I hold that the Father Machine is not a PPM. It is just a machine with a stupidly massive power source.
In fact, I hold that a true PPM cannot exist in the cosmere, due to a few principles.
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First Law of Thermodynamics:A simple formulation is: "The total energy in a system remains constant, although it may be converted from one form to another." Another common phrasing is that "energy can neither be created nor destroyed."
Second Law of Thermodynamics: One simple statement of the law is that heat always moves from hotter objects to colder objects (or "downhill"), unless energy in some form is supplied to reverse the direction ofheat flow. Another definition is: "Not all heat energy can be converted intoworkin acyclic process."[1][2][3]
(both of these laws are the major reason why PMMs are impossible in our reality)
We see that both are followed in the cosmere. We see that Matter, Energy, and Investiture all exist in this tripartite system, none can be created or destroyed, but can be converted between one another. This is held to quite perfectly, all cases where we see matter and energy be created, they are created from Investiture.
The second, we see that Investiture tends to flow from places of high concentration/energy, to ones of lower concentration. This is why the Dor flows out so forcefully, this is how some systems of sealing Spren in Fabrials works, this is why basically everyone leaks Investiture, etc.
The thing is that complexities arise when one adds in a connection to the Spiritual Realm. But this still does not entirely break them, as that is just an expansion of the system. The Spiritual Realm, and Investiture, becomes another power source. A machine linked to this external force, which acts due to connection to it (or to massive splinters of Investiture like the Hijo) is not a PMM, even if it could last forever,as it is being supplied energy.
Also...
Looking into a work with the sole purpose of finding evidence to a preconceived theory, or trying to find evidence of the possibility of an idea, tends to bias people into seeing things that are not truly there. I feel this is what you are going through at the moment. You are even, as I pointed to before, making up disproven headcanons in order to try and justify it "Breaths do not drain" (they have been shown to be used up and drain many, many times before. For example, the Tablet that Fort uses, it is a Nalthian Awakened Device, yet it does not have infinite power, it must be periodically charged in the sun (likely taking power from AisDa), if Breath provided literally infinite energy, then it wouldn't need to charge like that. We also see that ones Breaths actually grow fainter as one grows older, and most Awakened objects eventually run out of energy and stop functioning. Another another thing, we see that people with Breaths leak out the Breaths slowly over time, much like Radiants leak Stormlight. If what you claimed was true, they would be constantly leaking out an infinite amount of Investiture, as it does eventually run out, so if it was infinite, it would be leaking out an infinite amount.), "Investiture doesn't follow conservation of energy" (again, it does, and does so pretty consistently, you just are mistaken on what the conservation of energy applies to).
As an addition, I am not really a fan of the idea of trying to find PMM in the cosmere. With how hard Brandon has been trying to avoid such things, trying to find explanations as to why they would not be able to arise. It feels in very bad faith to try so hard to find how he failed in his endeavors, and feels mean spirited and almost malicious. Trying so hard to undermine his efforts just puts a really bad taste in my mouth.
I also don't even see why you want to find that out anyway, it seems like finding out such a system would just suck a lot of enjoyment out of the work. Makes everyone in-world seem stupid and makes a lot of problems become like idiot-plots of sorts, where the issue only exists due to their stupidity in not finding out this system for infinite energy. It would just make a lot of things feel so rubbish.
PS:Sorry if this comes across as angry, I am justverypassionate about cosmere, and this topic is basically trying to poke holes in one of my favorite parts of the verse, the ways in which Investiture reflects the Laws of Thermodynamics. It is something I love very dearly about the verse.
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